Worms Clan Wars

For Boggy B and his mates. If they existed, of course.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:52 am

Teleport Gun is just a gun that shoots a projectile in a straight line and teleports you to its position when it hits. It is actually quite versatile because you can aim it in mid-air and refire it indefinitely as long as you don't touch the ground. It doesn't sound nearly as versatile as the WA rope though.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Ulrox » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am

It seems to me that focussing on the hardcore pc crowd is the correct focus, but I am having trouble seeing how you can make a worms game for the hardcore crowd and not have the old WA rope be included. I bought both worms reloaded and worms revolution and hoped dearly it would be like the old worms armageddon... nope that wasnt the case. I thought worms revolution had a ton of potential though - the water effects and such made it a very fun game to play multiplayer with my friends, but it wasnt as addicting as worms armageddon 1999, so I stopped playing it after about 25 hours played. That said 25 hours is ok in my opinion but I've probably played worms armageddon closer to 2000 hours. :)

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by SupSuper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:06 am

It's impossible for the rope to be like in WA, they've stated so themselves, it's a different physics engine.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Ulrox » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:09 am

Well Bethany just told me that they're working on video's showing off the new teleport gun. Should be good. :)

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:36 pm

SupSuper wrote:It's impossible for the rope to be like in WA, they've stated so themselves, it's a different physics engine.
To be honest that's a really bad excuse. The fact that they are using a real physics engine doesn't mean that absolutely anything in the game must be powered by that physics engine. It's just easier to use a pre-made rope constraint that is supposedly "more realistic" than to code the whole rope physics yourself.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Squirminator2k » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:49 pm

Maybe it's just me, but coding two separate physics engines into the game, one of which is used exclusively by one utility, doesn't quite strike me as a sensible use of resources.
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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:50 am

I can already see at least three different "physics" engines in the game, one for physics objects and projectiles, one for dynamic water, and one that handles worm movement. Just imagine the chaos if worms behaved like physics objects.

My point is that any game which integrates a physics engine has at least a secondary engine that handles player movement, because letting the player behave like a physics object is probably the worst idea ever. Extending that secondary engine to include rope movement really wouldn't be hard at all, so the fact that the game uses a realistic physics engine isn't a valid excuse at all.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Star and Moon » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:15 pm

Star and Moon wrote:So there appears to be a trailer for it on youtube, with gameplay and stuff. Only problem is I'm not entirely sure it's official, but whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHcsK_xKZ1Y
OK, that wasn't the official trailer, this is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tgvn8yGXg0

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Alien King » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:40 pm

_Kilburn wrote:I can already see at least three different "physics" engines in the game, one for physics objects and projectiles, one for dynamic water, and one that handles worm movement. Just imagine the chaos if worms behaved like physics objects.

My point is that any game which integrates a physics engine has at least a secondary engine that handles player movement, because letting the player behave like a physics object is probably the worst idea ever. Extending that secondary engine to include rope movement really wouldn't be hard at all, so the fact that the game uses a realistic physics engine isn't a valid excuse at all.
This is loaded with so many bizarre assumptions...

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:45 pm

Such as?

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Star and Moon » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:18 pm

HOLY the teleport gun is awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUun71XQG3E

Also, have we got any 3D artists around here that plan on making stuff for the workshop?

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Akuryou13 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:13 pm

Star and Moon wrote:HOLY the teleport gun is awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUun71XQG3E
That looks pretty much exactly what I imagined when I heard the name. Interesting. Should be fun to try out.
Star and Moon wrote:Also, have we got any 3D artists around here that plan on making stuff for the workshop?
If I actually get into the game, I'd be down to make some stuff for it, but I haven't enjoyed any of the recent worms, so I'm not holding my breath...

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Alien King » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:31 pm

_Kilburn wrote:Such as?
I don't believe you can reasonably deduce the underlying mechanics that govern a game from a few videos.
In particular, I don't believe it's reasonable to assume disjoint rules for governing the behaviour of objects at this stage.*
You've assumed strong similarities between the model W:A uses and W:CW is uses. I don't think that's necessarily reasonable.
You've assumed easy translation between the two. This is definitely not reasonable.**

My point is that you probably don't know how the W:A Ninja Rope truly works and you almost certainly don't know how it works in this new game and you absolutely have no idea what'd be required to translate.
_Kilburn wrote:Extending that secondary engine to include rope movement really wouldn't be hard at all, so the fact that the game uses a realistic physics engine isn't a valid excuse at all.
If a decision is not made early, it becomes very expensive to make one later on. Making such a change now is essentially impossible if you want to have a chance of shipping.

I can criticise the new rope. I can bemoan that the old W:A rope was better, but if they say "Yeah, but it's not a case of tweaking a few parameters, our engine has incompatibilities" or the like, then all you can do is hope it's looked at for the next game. Certainly, by the time you have a working beta, it's far too late make low level changes.

Of course, they could be lying. I don't like to suggest that, I'd wait for actual evidence.


*Some really weird things can occur in games. You learn that things that you might think are disjoint aren't, and things that you might think are, are actually governed under the same rules.

**Those last two are inferences I've made on your post taken in context.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:22 pm

Alien King wrote:I don't believe you can reasonably deduce the underlying mechanics that govern a game from a few videos.
In particular, I don't believe it's reasonable to assume disjoint rules for governing the behaviour of objects at this stage.*
Well first of all it is quite obvious that this game uses the same engine as Worms Revolution, and since I have already played Worms Revolution I know how the rope behaves (also I'm in the W:CW beta, I think that's all I can say without breaching the NDA). Plus I have quite a bit of experience with various game engines and there are many aspects that do not really vary between engines. For instance all "realistic" physics engines behave more or less the same way and are only good for simulating objects or debris that can be moved around by the player. It's usually not a good idea to let such a physics engine govern player movement because it's unreliable as hell.
Alien King wrote:You've assumed strong similarities between the model W:A uses and W:CW is uses. I don't think that's necessarily reasonable.
You've assumed easy translation between the two. This is definitely not reasonable.**

My point is that you probably don't know how the W:A Ninja Rope truly works and you almost certainly don't know how it works in this new game and you absolutely have no idea what'd be required to translate.
There are many basic models that are shared by all games because they are the most straightforward ones. For instance all moving objects will always have a position, a velocity, and some form of collision detection. As long as you have those three, it is perfectly possible to replicate the WA rope if you have its source code without going through the physics engine that takes care of physics objects. The WA rope isn't even that complicated, it's just a chain of points that are regularly spaced (so the rope can wrap around landscape) and a length constraint that keeps the worm at a fixed distance from the nearest point that's touching terrain. The swinging might be hard to tweak but that's the basic idea. However, since the whole thing relies on nothing else than collision detection and a worm's position and velocity, it can be definitely be implemented in the Worms Revolution engine.
Alien King wrote:I can criticise the new rope. I can bemoan that the old W:A rope was better, but if they say "Yeah, but it's not a case of tweaking a few parameters, our engine has incompatibilities" or the like, then all you can do is hope it's looked at for the next game. Certainly, by the time you have a working beta, it's far too late make low level changes.
Of course, I only wanted to say that there is no WA-like rope simply because they don't want to make one. There is absolutely no other reason for it and the fact that they're using a realistic physics engine for some weapons and map elements is completely irrelevant, so I don't understand why they're using that as an excuse. There is no incompatilibity. If they can implement the Jetpack and the Parachute, then a WA-like rope is perfectly possible. They just don't want to make one.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Akuryou13 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:35 am

Alien King wrote:Of course, they could be lying. I don't like to suggest that, I'd wait for actual evidence.
They have released game after game with crappy ninja rope variants that utterly fail to capture the feel of the original W:A rope. They have repeatedly heard complaints from the community regarding the ropes, and they have repeatedly ignored them. If their engine has incompatibilities, that's fine. I can understand that. Except that they've had several years and several games all getting the same complaints, and if they haven't fixed their engine by now, the only reason for that is that they don't WANT to. They've got full access to the original code, and they've got years of experience making these games. You can't tell me they can't find a way to implement a rope that feels like all the old ropes felt. That would be assuming incompetence on their part at a grand level.

And Kilburn, how're they handling the beta this time around? I haven't heard anything of applications.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Mr Phillby » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:29 am

I think it's fairer to assume incompetence rather than outright maliciousness.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Akuryou13 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:39 am

Mr Phillby wrote:I think it's fairer to assume incompetence rather than outright maliciousness.
I would imagine its less being malicious and more just not caring, or being prideful. They probably just believe that what they have already is working great and we're just nostalgic for the old rope and not giving the new one a fair chance. Either because they're out of touch or because they don't want to admit their mistakes, but the result is the same.

They've done a good job everwhere else, so I find it hard to believe that they're simply incapable of replicating the rope. Granted, I know little of code.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by _Kilburn » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:45 am

Akuryou13 wrote:And Kilburn, how're they handling the beta this time around? I haven't heard anything of applications.
Yeah they only gave information on beta applications on their Facebook page, and that was a bit more than a month ago. The new employees are quite friendly and they actually listen to feedback and suggestions concerning weapon balance. I just find it weird that they're going to release the game so soon, there are so many things that still need to be tested.
The game is definitely going to be good though. It's a big improvement over Revolution.
Akuryou13 wrote:
Mr Phillby wrote:I think it's fairer to assume incompetence rather than outright maliciousness.
I would imagine its less being malicious and more just not caring, or being prideful. They probably just believe that what they have already is working great and we're just nostalgic for the old rope and not giving the new one a fair chance. Either because they're out of touch or because they don't want to admit their mistakes, but the result is the same.

They've done a good job everwhere else, so I find it hard to believe that they're simply incapable of replicating the rope. Granted, I know little of code.
As awesome as it is, the WA rope doesn't rely on witchcraft or obscure arcanes, in the end it's not that different from other movement tools such as the Jetpack and the Parachute. If they still have its source code there's no reason for them to be unable to replicate it in this new engine. They just don't want it back. I kinda understand it too, it was just way too good. Even though the new rope feels incredibly clumsy, it behaves like an actual rope so you can't just travel from one side of the landscape to another with it. I think that's how it was always supposed to be.
Now I'm just a bit disappointed that they didn't include a second rope that behaves just like the WA one. Even though the Teleport Gun is great, it's nowhere near the versatility of the WA rope. I guess having two ropes in the game would be a bit awkward... even though they had absolutely no problem with having two jetpacks.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Star and Moon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:15 pm

I think people just need to understand that the old rope is not coming back, it's just WA's thing, and most likely always will be WA's thing. That shouldn't be the only thing they care about in the newer games.

I mean, yes the old rope was GOOD, but yeah, it's only a small feature of the game, not really that important.

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Re: Worms Clan Wars

Post by Merkules » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Star and Moon wrote:I think people just need to understand that the old rope is not coming back, it's just WA's thing, and most likely always will be WA's thing. That shouldn't be the only thing they care about in the newer games.

I mean, yes the old rope was GOOD, but yeah, it's only a small feature of the game, not really that important.
Some of those people will never be happy unless it's Armageddon HD (and even then, someone will complain the HD graphics make it hard to see things, or that they "ruin the artstyle"). I think Hedgewars is far more fun to play with when it comes to rope based schemes, but nobody plays it anymore.

I don't even care about the rope, I squeaked a few hours out of Revolution just fine without using rope schemes. I just want Clan Wars to have a much, much wider range of game options, as having all of those features removed for one reason or another feels very much like T17 is telling me how to play. And I hate that, Worms is all about playing the game however you damn well feel like, rope or no rope.

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